tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post5918290945727526262..comments2023-09-24T12:47:57.051+01:00Comments on Unzipped: Disclosed: Madrid principles of Karabakh conflict settlement (updated!)artmikahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11207317653711435445noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-2988156036894097382008-11-02T18:41:00.000+00:002008-11-02T18:41:00.000+00:00Empty words: Karabakh talks in Moscow<A HREF="http://unzipped.blogspot.com/2008/11/empty-words-karabakh-talks-in-moscow.html" REL="nofollow">Empty words: Karabakh talks in Moscow</A>artmikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207317653711435445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-76483877958027365112008-10-29T16:51:00.000+00:002008-10-29T16:51:00.000+00:00Onnik,It is good that you have such valuable knowl...Onnik,<BR/><BR/>It is good that you have such valuable knowledge of the situation in Lachin. And I agree that everything you say about Karabakh and the surrounding territories should happen. The point I keep trying to impress upon you, but no longer the many others who already understand the seriousness of the situation, is that the regime is making their preparations in secret, not to the benefit of these people who you know very well, but to satisfy their own greed - as always.<BR/><BR/>But, as you have such confidence in Serzh and his cronies, rather than to-ing and fro-ing on this topic, let us simply ignore it and wait until it has happened. Then Armenia's independent reporters will have several months reporting on the tragedy that has happened, hoping it will be important enough to attract the attention of the international press.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-87184493590722530412008-10-29T13:46:00.000+00:002008-10-29T13:46:00.000+00:00Bruce, many of them still have their homes in Yere...Bruce, many of them still have their homes in Yerevan, Sisian, Gyumri, etc and oh yeah, I've spent years researching Lachin and the surrounding areas. In fact, I have friends and relatives of my ex-wife living there. I've spent a lot of time there and living with those settlers.<BR/><BR/>So, I know the situation quite well, and why most of them moved there i.e. social vulnerability in Armenia and financial incentives in Kashatagh. Not all, but most. Moreover, Lachin is where everybody wants to be and not some god-forsaken village cut off from the main town.<BR/><BR/><I>Echoing these sentiments, Irkoyan says he would refuse to leave. "Some might have moved here because of the social conditions in Armenia," he says, "but others did not. I can't guarantee that I will always live in Lachin, but there is a connection with this land. It is our life, and if we lose that, there is nothing. While I am not saying that everybody will fight again, at least 30 percent would. Nobody can tell us what to do, not even the Americans."</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.oneworld.am/journalism/articles/lachin.html" REL="nofollow">http://www.oneworld.am/journalism/articles/lachin.html</A><BR/><BR/>Anyway, for anybody interested, there's photos from Lachin and the last few articles I wrote from there at the following URLs:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.oneworld.am/photojournalism/lachin/index.html" REL="nofollow">Life in No Man's Land</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav091506.shtml" REL="nofollow">ARMENIA’S STRATEGIC LACHIN CORRIDOR CONFRONTS A DEMOGRAPHIC CRISIS </A>, EurasiaNet<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh" REL="nofollow">Lachin: The Emptying Lands</A>, IWPR<BR/><BR/>There's also a lot of stuff on my old blog at <A HREF="http://oneworld.blogsome.com" REL="nofollow">http://oneworld.blogsome.com</A>. <BR/><BR/>Long and the short of it is that there needs to be a peace deal, Karabakh must have it's independence recognized, there must be a link through Lachin and the closest surrounding villages (where most of the settlers are) and so on.<BR/><BR/>The only alternative is the continuing isolation of Armenia, the Karabakh issue used for internal political purposes and frustrating democratization, and possible eventual war in the future. I know which sounds best to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-7512165984445574472008-10-29T13:12:00.000+00:002008-10-29T13:12:00.000+00:00Onnik,The people of Lachin and the other surroundi...Onnik,<BR/><BR/>The people of Lachin and the other surrounding territories will be pleased to know you have the situation so well under control. Whilst we're on the subject, maybe you could let them know what 'financial incentives' they will be able to look forward to when they are kicked out of their homes, so that they won't have to spend their days protesting in front of the Government building, together with those evicted from the Northern Prospect.<BR/><BR/>In fact, some of them probably are the ones from the Northern Prospect who used to protest in front of the Government building.<BR/><BR/>Let's wait and see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-47881941971560743012008-10-29T11:48:00.000+00:002008-10-29T11:48:00.000+00:00Lachin, where most of the settlers are situated, w...Lachin, where most of the settlers are situated, will be a land link and populated. The other settlers mostly moved there because they were poor in Armenia. They can be quite easily moved back and will probably be glad to if financial incentives are made available. <BR/><BR/>As for those other territories, that was always going to be the case. Under Ter-Petrossian, under Serge. And that is not a sell-out except for die-hard nationalists and those in the opposition who are trying to exploit this card for their own purposes.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, let's wait and see. This region needs peace badly, and I hope that based on principles that gives Karabakh it's eventual independence and a land-link with Armenia, we'll get it.<BR/><BR/>Still, Russia is not exactly the most trustworthy of partners so let's see. We should know soon enough, but the unknown is actually Azerbaijan. All speculation on Armenia is just that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-44060570381905454622008-10-29T11:34:00.000+00:002008-10-29T11:34:00.000+00:00Onnik,I have never actually said that Serzh was ab...Onnik,<BR/><BR/>I have never actually said that Serzh was about to 'sell-out' Karabakh, I have said it looks like he could. But the return of the surrounding territories will undoubtedly be a 'sell-out'.<BR/><BR/>'On this matter as well as on Armenian-Turkish relations he has been far from consistent'.<BR/><BR/>Serzh is known for his consistency. Up until the 1st March he was consistent about never turning his own security services out in the streets with guns (when water cannon or teargas, or a host of other alternatives would have done very nicely) against crowd of his own peaceful Armenians - Until he did it and murdered at least ten innocent Armenians.<BR/><BR/>The only difference between the 1st March and karabakh (and Genocide) is that with the latter, he has not actually done it yet. But he is about to!<BR/><BR/>Then who will look after the 15,000 Armenians who live in the surrounding territories - as far as Serzh is concerned, they do not exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-29922140442064224232008-10-29T11:19:00.000+00:002008-10-29T11:19:00.000+00:00Maybe we'll know soon enough if this is anything t...Maybe we'll know soon enough if this is anything to go by:<BR/><BR/><I>MOSCOW (AFP) – The presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan will meet in Moscow this weekend to discuss the Nagorny Karabakh conflict in talks mediated by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, the Kremlin said Wednesday.<BR/>"On November 2, 2008, in Moscow... a meeting will take place between Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Armenian President Serzh Sarkisian with the participation of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on the regulation of the Nagorny Karabakh conflict," the Kremlin said in a statement.<BR/><BR/>Armenia and Azerbaijan confirmed that the meeting would take place, but presidential officials in both countries declined to comment further.<BR/><BR/>Medvedev visited Armenia last week in a fresh push to end the long-simmering conflict over Nagorny Karabakh, an enclave of Azerbaijan with a largely ethnic Armenian population that broke free of Baku's control in the early 1990s.<BR/><BR/>Sarkisian said at the meeting that he was ready for talks with Baku on the basis of principles worked out at negotiations in Madrid last year, meaning that the people of Nagorny Karabakh gain the right to self-determination.<BR/><BR/>The enclave has been the subject of heightened international diplomacy in recent weeks, with US and Turkish officials visiting Armenia to push for a negotiated solution.<BR/><BR/>Analysts say Moscow is keen to maintain influence in Armenia, its main ally in the Caucasus, after Russia's brief war with US-allied Georgia in August raised tensions throughout the region.</I><BR/><BR/>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081029/wl_afp/armeniaazerbaijanrussiadiplomacy_081029102446Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-1403725282336717362008-10-29T09:27:00.000+00:002008-10-29T09:27:00.000+00:00Guys, right now the discussion is out of context. ...Guys, right now the discussion is out of context. While we do not have the Nadrid principles from a proven source, all our discussion is based on speculations, and misinformation. <BR/>While officials are hiding the details - there can not be any constructive debate on those details.<BR/><BR/>While I agree with Onnik, that ICG recommendations are something really close to everything officials say, I can't refer to them as Madrid principles. <BR/><BR/>Moreover, I simply reckon, that serious discussion on false information is a nonsense itself.<BR/><BR/>I think this post by Artmika is a good start for research of public statements, trying to find actual Madrid principles. <BR/><BR/>I personally will try to bring all the public statements by officials in one place, so we will have something, that can be analyzed.Ruben Muradyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14077918272036025352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-51443194168430413202008-10-29T09:00:00.000+00:002008-10-29T09:00:00.000+00:00Mika, Sure. Agreed. If not exactly the same, prett...Mika, Sure. Agreed. If not exactly the same, pretty damn close. In fact, the principles are pretty much those which have been in place since Paris. The stumbling block there, I think, was the issue of Kelbajar.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, in addition to that, the EurasiaNet article appears to say the issue of the referendum seems to be a crucial one. I'd argue therefore that the prohibition on a localized referendum in the Azerbaijani constitution is a matter that should be raised.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure Aliyev will be able to push constitutional amendments through at some point along the line (they did that here okay without an actual voter turn-out), but it should be monitored.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, if the provisions of a framework deal are still in place, it was said that Karabakh would be granted the interim status of a protectorate of Armenia. Regardless, the details should be made known.<BR/><BR/>However, that needs the approval of all sides, apparently, and I'd guess that Azerbaijan is once again a stumbling block. Certainly, Aliyev's statements of late do not indicate he's ready to sign such a deal.<BR/><BR/>Populist rhetoric, I'm sure, but it doesn't help, gets his population ready for war, and anyway, he doesn't need to play the Karabakh card given his apparently strong position in terms of domestic politics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-87117746382789917102008-10-29T08:06:00.000+00:002008-10-29T08:06:00.000+00:00Onnik, this effectively provides additional sugges...Onnik, this effectively provides additional suggestion that the ICG recommendations published in this post are in fact basic Madrid principles. What we do not know are the details, the ones we read in relation to the 1997 phased settlement proposal.artmikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207317653711435445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-62241730384168900342008-10-29T07:28:00.000+00:002008-10-29T07:28:00.000+00:00This is about the only thing I can find on the Mad...This is about the only thing I can find on the Madrid principles:<BR/><BR/><I>The basic principles, which were first made public last year, envisage the progressive liberation of the seven Azerbaijani administrative districts bordering on Nagorno-Karabakh that Armenian forces have been occupying since 1992-93. They also provide for the demilitarization of the conflict zone, the deployment of an international peacekeeping force, the repatriation of Armenian settlers, and the return of Azerbaijani internally displaced persons. The future status of the unrecognized republic of Nagorno-Karabakh would be determined later.<BR/><BR/>But, as Mammadyarov once said, "the devil is in the details" and a number of outstanding differences remain.<BR/><BR/>Among them are the practicalities of any future referendum on Nagorno-Karabakh’s final status. The Minsk Group co-chairs have suggested that, pending a vote, the region be given an interim status that would be recognized by both sides.<BR/><BR/>Other sticking points include the scope and modalities of the Armenian withdrawal from Azerbaijan’s occupied Kalbacar and Lachin districts, which are sandwiched between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia. Yerevan views those two districts as being of vital importance to Karabakh’s future security, and has conditioned their liberation on stringent requirements.<BR/><BR/>What new proposals, if any, the set of basic principles that France, Russia and the United States presented the Armenian and Azerbaijani foreign ministers in Madrid is unclear. Azerbaijan’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Xazar Ibrahim on December 7 said the package contained "nothing particularly new."<BR/><BR/>"There are a few nuances, but generally speaking those basic principles are those that have been negotiated within the framework of the Prague process," he told reporters in Baku.<BR/><BR/>In their respective speeches to the OSCE ministerial council, neither Oskanian, nor Mammadyarov made any reference to the document they had just received.<BR/><BR/>While noting the existence of a generally positive trend, the Armenian foreign minister denounced what he said were Azerbaijan’s persistent threats to resort to a military solution to the conflict. Mammadyarov, in turn, accused Armenia of "deceiving" the international community and pursuing a policy of "fait accompli" by sending settlers and large ammunition stockpiles to the occupied territories.<BR/><BR/>The Madrid announcement generated relatively little interest in Azerbaijan and Armenia -- something international mediators may view as a frustrating circumstance. According to OSCE officials, the co-chairs had hoped that the presentation of basic principles would stoke public debate in both countries, thereby accelerating the negotiation process. Such hopes, however, have not been fulfilled.</I><BR/><BR/>http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav120707.shtmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-61129412690863663632008-10-28T22:31:00.000+00:002008-10-28T22:31:00.000+00:00Just a thought--since Sargsyan said that the Madri...Just a thought--since Sargsyan said that the Madrid principles are available on the Internet, and there is confusion and mystery involved as to what and where they are and may be, why not ask him personally to clear this up?? The president.am site now seems to actually be working, and there's an "ask the president a question box":<BR/><BR/>http://www.president.am/president/<BR/>letter/eng/<BR/><BR/>This seems in fact like a perfect question to ask him (though the questions should come from citizens or at least residents), since he stated how open he is to discussing the issue.... :)Anihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05443689500887100154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-42644592796070394772008-10-28T21:40:00.000+00:002008-10-28T21:40:00.000+00:00Besides, it is quite clear, and to repeat myself a...Besides, it is quite clear, and to repeat myself again. Sargsyan has put himself behind the right of Karabakh Armenians to be independent.<BR/><BR/><I>“The settlement of the Karabakh conflict is possible if Azerbaijan recognises the right of people of Karabakh to self-determination, if Nagorno Karabakh is guaranteed a land border with the Republic of Armenia and if the international organisations and the international community guarantee the security of the people of Nagorno Karabakh,” Armenia Serzh Sargsyan said in an interview with the Public TV.</I><BR/><BR/>Plain and simple, in fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-77479257372598154852008-10-28T21:36:00.000+00:002008-10-28T21:36:00.000+00:00Bruce, Sargsyan is not going to sell out Nagorno K...Bruce, Sargsyan is not going to sell out Nagorno Karabakh. As with Levon, the territories around it with the exception of part of Lachin will be returned, but nothing else.<BR/><BR/>You can say Sargsyan (as with Kocharian and Ter-Petrossian) are authoritarian, undemocratic leaders and so on, but this is one thing that just strikes me as absurd.<BR/><BR/>That is, exploiting Karabakh in the hope to make political gains. I will say this, however. <BR/><BR/>I believe that Ter-Petrossian was right in linking the future development of Armenia to resolution of the Karabakh conflict. I also believe that Sargsyan's position articulated over the past few years is genuine.<BR/><BR/>Kocharian was a hardliner in comparison and I didn't consider him as interested in a deal as Ter-Petrossian or Sargsyan. Now, the latter is not proving the same as Kocharian.<BR/><BR/>Love him or hate him, he is not Kocharian, and on this matter as well as on Armenian-Turkish relations he has been consistent. RFE/RL journalists as long ago as 4 years ago said the same from insider information on these matters.<BR/><BR/>Nothing has changed since. Trying to argue to the contrary is really nothing more than trying to turn people against him. Fine, but on this issue (as with relations with Turkey) are not it.<BR/><BR/>Democracy, the oligarchs, the inquiry into 1 March... for sure, there's plenty to take exception to. However, Karabakh and Turkey are issues where he has had a position over the years and that has not changed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-15218465932923421312008-10-28T12:04:00.000+00:002008-10-28T12:04:00.000+00:00Hi Unzipped,A link to this item was posted on Khos...Hi Unzipped,<BR/><BR/>A link to this item was posted on Khosq.com yesterday, and within hours it was already on the front page with a score of +9 (12 votes in total including votes against). I must say that rarely is there an an item on khosq that moves up the popularity ladder so quick. I guess the "Madrid Principles" are still hazy, controvercial and unclear to most people. So thank's for posting this and thanks all for all these 38 comments!<BR/><BR/>What's more, your blog item about Madrid Principles was voted the best item on khosq for this week, and Second best for this month. (and all this in less than 2 days. I'm sure it will still gather more votes while on the front page.) <BR/><BR/>best<BR/><BR/>Garen<BR/>khosq.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-30609748707785564792008-10-28T10:38:00.000+00:002008-10-28T10:38:00.000+00:00Onnik, You seem to be under the delusion that the ...Onnik, You seem to be under the delusion that the words the Sargsyan regime speak have any relationship with the actual truth. On the one hand you write there is "no indication that Sargsyan has done anything other than stick to his repeated line that Karabakh must have the right to self-determination", then you agree with 'the principles Mika outlined wherever they came from'.<BR/><BR/>The principles Mika outlined do NOT 'give Karabakh the right to self-determination', it simply states that a referendum on the final status of Nagorno-Karabagh will be Conducted in some undefined, future date'. It does NOT state that Karabakh will conduct that referendum, which effectively means Azerbaijan will.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-29730007460496163122008-10-28T08:38:00.000+00:002008-10-28T08:38:00.000+00:00Again, we're talking about details we simply don't...Again, we're talking about details we simply don't know enough about. For example, I was told by by one prominent (and incidentally pro-opposition) journalist/analyst close to the talks that two years ago the interim status of Karabakh which was being discussed was one where it would be a protectorate of Armenia until its status was resolved. <BR/><BR/>The fact that Lachin and Kelbajar appear to remain a stumbling block in negotiations also indicates that Armenia is thinking about the necessity to move in troops very quickly if the need arises. Like I said, I believe that the issue of a Karabakh "sell-out" is now being used in the hope that it can bring down the government.<BR/><BR/>However, there is no indication that Sargsyan has done anything other than stick to his repeated line that Karabakh must have the right to self-determination, there must be a land border with Armenia, and international security guarantees must be in place. Anyway, there is nothing wrong in the principles Mika outlined wherever they came from.<BR/><BR/>Anything else is speculation and an attempt to encourage panic in something we simply don't know enough about. Therefore, I would agree that it's time there was more disclosure. However, that depends on Azerbaijan's position.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-11506969984056400312008-10-28T06:54:00.000+00:002008-10-28T06:54:00.000+00:00The question of buffer zone. It is a preventive me...The question of buffer zone. It is a preventive measure for another 1915. Bufferzone should stay and it should be under Armenian control. Who else can protect the population other than the sons whose families are under risk. There was a French ptotaction in 1920 in Cilicia. A UN bufferzone between Lebanon and Israel. There was a similar one in Mitrovice. A Russian one in S Osetia. None of them prevented the slaughter of innocent people. The security of Armenian population shouldn't be left on the mercy of creators of worldwide misery. Not a centimeter of land should be given to a party who is full of hatred and ready to slaughter you. The buffer zone protected the Armenian population since 1994 and Armenian side didnt show any aggression. As for the return of Azeri refugees they suffer because of the policies of multibillion Aliyev country. They still live in tents and train cars because Aliyev family doesn't care. They are used for photoshoots and inflicting hatred toward Armenians so that the Aliyev family can divert the attention and stay in power.Haikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03530769981310520268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-30036211605725937932008-10-28T04:13:00.000+00:002008-10-28T04:13:00.000+00:00Today.Az » Politics » Serzh Sargsyan: "There is no...Today.Az » Politics » Serzh Sargsyan: "There is no alternative to the peaceful resolution of the Karabakh conflict"<BR/><BR/>27 October 2008<BR/><BR/>"The resolution of the Karabakh conflict is possible in case Nagorno Karabakh has a land border with Armenia, if 'international organizations and leading states' ensure the security of the people of Nagorno Karabakh"<BR/><BR/>http://www.today.az/news/politics/48536.html<BR/><BR/>What happened to Armenia's repeated insistences that it would always be responsible for the security of Karabakh and its people?<BR/><BR/>The truth starting to come out, exposing more lies from the Sargsyan regime.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-50008116149014679592008-10-27T19:58:00.000+00:002008-10-27T19:58:00.000+00:001. Karabakh had significant voiceI have to agree. ...1. Karabakh had significant voice<BR/>I have to agree. <BR/>2. Security<BR/>Let's just state, that there was plain exchange: territory for discussion.<BR/>3. Did you see any clear definition of Karabakh status in Madrid proposals or ICG recommendations?<BR/>Sir, but I hadn't seen the Madrid proposals, moreover, I'm not sure that ICG recommendations ARE the Madrid proposals. Anyway - yes. There is statement on status: "Nagorno-Karabakh’s final status to be determined eventually by a vote, with an interim status to be settled on until that time;"<BR/>4. Azeri speeches<BR/>To be honest, Mika, I'm not pay big attention to azeri speeches, neither taking them into account. ;)Ruben Muradyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14077918272036025352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-89140856264762289552008-10-27T19:35:00.000+00:002008-10-27T19:35:00.000+00:00OK, now I read the document, and here are my first...OK, now I read the document, and here are my first reflections. If it is indeed the genuine document, it seems to me very similar to the basics of Madrid proposal (whether they are ICG ones or the ones which vaguely discussed here and there), as I already said in this post.<BR/> <BR/>Look, as you said, and as mentioned in that review you cited, Karabakh had significant voice in deciding the fate of the settlement in past. It is not that clear if Karabakh has the voice in negotiations, as of now. <BR/><BR/>It’s difficult to assess the security details of the previous and current proposals as we need more details of the current proposal and expert opinions. <BR/><BR/>I would separate couple of points from the document and will wait to see if and how they are reflected in the current proposal<BR/><BR/>B (3) Azerbaijani armed forces will be withdrawn to the line…and will be withdrawn from all territories of Armenia<BR/><BR/>III. A. Upon the completion of withdrawal of armed forces the buffer zone will be located along the 1988 boundaries of the NKAO and the north and south boundaries of the Lachin corridor. The buffer zone will remain without human population and is completely demilitarized, with the exception of elements forming part of the OSCE peacekeeping mission.<BR/><BR/>D. Security conditions in all districts controlled by the Nagorny Karabakh authorities after the withdrawal of forces in accordance with Article II will be guaranteed by the existing military and security structures of Nagorny Karabakh.<BR/><BR/>Also there is mention of Shahumyan region in XI. <BR/><BR/><I>“It means, that Levon Ter-Petrosyan agreed, planned and promoted the way of Karabakh conflict resolution with giving out everything but Lachin, without clear definition of Karabakh status.”</I><BR/><BR/>Did you see any clear definition of Karabakh status in Madrid proposals or ICG recommendations? There is none. Just stating the vaguely defined referendum may mean nothing. In fact, as of now, we have not seen any sign of Azerbaijan even considering the possibility of independence of Karabakh as a result of the referendum. Instead, we have uncompromising speeches and references to their constitution which will make the whole idea of the referendum nonsense.artmikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207317653711435445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-42722642096231133632008-10-27T19:14:00.000+00:002008-10-27T19:14:00.000+00:00Dear Bruce,But there's no sign in this article, th...Dear Bruce,<BR/>But there's no sign in this article, that ICG Recommendations ARE Madrid principles.<BR/>BTW this piece of text is located here - http://www.osce.org/item/28515.html<BR/><BR/>And there's a mistake in your address for the phase sollution. The correct one is: http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabakh/keytexts19.phpRuben Muradyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14077918272036025352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-2276447602154981232008-10-27T19:13:00.000+00:002008-10-27T19:13:00.000+00:00Bruce, I suppose what is unclear is whether the In...Bruce, I suppose what is unclear is whether the International Crisis Group recommendations (which are the exact copies to the ones you posted) are in fact Madrid proposals? Lets hope we’ll get clarifications at some point soon. <BR/><BR/>Link:<BR/>It should be <A HREF="http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabakh/keytexts19.php" REL="nofollow">http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabakh/keytexts19.php</A> <BR/><BR/>Ruben, many thanks for the links. I started reading now, will reflect soon.artmikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207317653711435445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-18908050271245302782008-10-27T19:05:00.000+00:002008-10-27T19:05:00.000+00:00http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabak...http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabakh/keytext is not available.<BR/><BR/>Anyone help?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4331396433182434044.post-86500708317825550892008-10-27T18:57:00.000+00:002008-10-27T18:57:00.000+00:00Artmika,Here is the article which accompanied the ...Artmika,<BR/><BR/>Here is the article which accompanied the recommendations I have on my blog, and some of which you have posted.<BR/><BR/>I applied to the email address given on the post, but without reply, so I recently applied again and copied my message to you. <BR/><BR/>My information from this is that the recommendations are in fact the Madrid recommendations. If there is concern that this is not correct, then I strongly suggest someone in the press, or with other authority, insist that they be made available, as Serzh Sargsyan has STATED THEY WOULD BE in his last weeks press conference. Or is that another Serzh Sargsyan LIE?<BR/><BR/>........................<BR/><BR/>OSCE Minsk Group issues statement on Nagorno-Karabakh<BR/><BR/>MADRID, 29 November 2007 - The OSCE Minsk Group issued the following statement today:<BR/><BR/>"Prior to the opening of the OSCE Ministerial Council in Madrid on November 29, 2007, U.S. Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, and French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner met with the Foreign Ministers of Armenia and Azerbaijan, Vardan Oskanian and Elmar Mammadyarov, to demonstrate political-level support for the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chair countries' effort to forge a just and lasting settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. <BR/><BR/>"In the meeting, the representatives of the United States, France and Russia formally presented a set of Basic Principles for the Peaceful Settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict to the Armenian and Azerbaijani Foreign Ministers for transmission to the Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan. <BR/><BR/>"It was noted that over the last three years of talks the two sides had significantly narrowed their differences through the mediation of the Co-Chair countries and that only a few differences remained to be settled. As noted by the representatives of the three Co-Chair countries, the joint proposal that was transmitted today to the parties offered just and constructive solutions to these last remaining differences. <BR/><BR/>"The parties to the conflict were strongly urged to bring to a close the current stage of negotiations by endorsing the proposed Basic Principles and commencing as soon as possible to draft a comprehensive Peace Agreement."<BR/><BR/>Contacts<BR/><BR/>23 Shatberashvili Str.<BR/>Tbilisi<BR/>Georgia<BR/>Tel: +995 32 29 24 24<BR/>Fax: +995 32 98 85 66<BR/><BR/>E-mail link:<BR/>http://www.osce.org/contacts/email.php?id=171Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com