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Tuesday, 29 April 2008

28 'convicts' and 1 'police chief' demand freedom for political prisoners in Armenia

Action of the day - by Hima (Now) youth movement. They aim to become the Armenian equivalent of youth movements Otpor - in former Yugoslavia; Kmara - in Georgia; Pora - in Ukraine, which were instrumental in bringing changes in their respective countries. They are pretty new as Hima movement, although as far as I understand developed from and affiliated with Sksela but with more distinctly political aims. So far they organised small but creative and vocal protest actions. Whether they will develop into 'Pora' or 'Kmara' remain to be seen.




(based on A1+ and Lragir) 28 young people were wearing prisoners' outfit with a letter on each which made up the phrase Freedom to Political Prisoners. There was also 1 'police chief' among protesters. They started at the Office of Prosecutor General, walked to the Statue of Miasnikyan where they held a minute of silence in memory of the victims of March 1, then past the embassies of France and Italy to the government building, the parliament and the president office. Afterwards, the participants of the action went to the Northern Avenue for "popular walks". The only place police did not allow them to enter was the Liberty sq.

34 comments:

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Es erekherki tsav@ tanem!

I'm guessing this wasn't a Sksela action because they don't have it up on their website.

If not, it is probably a group of friends who've decided to do this on their own. Meaning it is yet another piece of evidence that suggests a profound transformation, a Renaissance, afoot.

Anonymous said...

Even if nothing happens which is unrealistic considering the present situation in Armenia, at least we can hope that in future we'll have a big and free group of young people watching any authority, ready to criticise and demand changes.

mayranoush said...

Very creative, it gives one hope regarding the younger generation. It also it shows that the opposition isn't just driven by the aging 'obizhniks' as the regime supporters want to claim.

It will not be good if they are compared to Kmara or Pora though. That will only serve to delegitimize them in the eyes of the regime supporters. Who will of course say that this is another foreign funded group set up to create internal chaos.

reflective said...

My guess is that many of the real change agents in society are working with the government.

Already there are many statements (and already some actions) indicating real change. For example, the near-instantaneous announcement that weekly government deliberations are open to the press, the identification of tax and customs as realms in need of immediate reform etc.

I for one am optimistic and feel that many things are moving in the right direction.

Anonymous said...

///it gives one hope regarding the younger generation///

hard to say, number of participants were from diaspora

//It also it shows that the opposition isn't just driven by the aging 'obizhniks'///

Yes, driving force of "instrument" youth is different. So the semi-oppositional movement is led by aging 'obizhniks'. Be careful when attributing followers characteristics to the leadership.

///as the regime supporters want to claim///

the regime supporters were Jhangiryan, General Manvel, Hakob Hakobyan and other garbage. Also regime supporters are Dodi Gago, other non-Gharabaghtsi oligarkhs and criminals who -according to the leader LTP- are good people. Clarify the list of regime supporters

///It will not be good if they are compared to Kmara or Pora though.///

Defenitly it is compared. Any movement which is "against someone" and not "pro something" will be compared to that movement.


///That will only serve to delegitimize them in the eyes of the regime supporters. ///

I doubt thet regime supporters Jhangiryan or even dody Gago even know what is pora or kmara.
So in the eyes of real regime supporters it will do nothing. But it will definitely deligitimize them in the eyes of everyone taking care of Armenia and Armenian unity.

///Who will of course say that this is another foreign funded group set up to create internal chaos.///

Good that lesson is learnt and understood that kmara and pora were aimed to split societies in the respective countries and they reach the goal. Regrdless of who financed the neobolshevik movement, it harms Armenian society the same way as it was with pora and kmara.

Onnik Krikorian said...

It should be pointed out that this is not the first time that youth have been active. Indeed, they were last most active in the run-up to the 1996 presidential election. According to Eleonora Manadyan, one of the leaders of the student youth movement back then, the government then broke them and even with a change of presidency it was understood that youth should be"distracted" with governmental-linked events and groups. Ironically, the same has happened since the Rose Revolution in Georgia regardless of Kmara.

The numbers aren't large enough now either, but it has to be said that the same was true for Kmara. Its real active component in Tbilisi was a dozen or so people. It just was there at the right time, in the right context and as part of something much larger. It remains to be seen whether this can be said about Armenia at present.

For now, I suspect not because the period of elections is passing by. For the next election -- probably parliamentary -- it could be different. Anyway, I'd like to see a non-partisan (in terms of candidates/parties) socio-political youth movement spring up but at present it's unlikely. Meanwhile, the youth groups of ARF-D and OYP are significantly larger so it's not an issue of "politicizing" youth, it's a matter of how and for who/what.

Anyway, for those interested, I interviewed Eleonora Manandyan on youth and democracy in 2004

http://www.oneworld.am/journalism/interviews/eleonora_manandyan_0001.html

(the interview carries on for 3 pages and I think my style sheet link is kaput on some pages, but anyway)

reflective said...

Anonymous - good point regarding the splitting of society. I think one of the reasons that LTP has received so little traction is that this constant theme of splitting society is correctly assessed by so many in Armenia as destructive. As all the inflammatory rhetoric is cooling off, most people are thankfully repelled by the divisiveness. Hence the dwindling numbers.

Ani said...

//Hence the dwindling numbers.//

Let's see: Leadership people are locked up in jail and there is (despite all that progress!!) still no change in the ban on large protests. The courtrooms are so full of protesters that trials have been postponed. And it's over two months after the elections. What dwindling numbers??

//My guess is that many of the real change agents in society are working with the government.//

As for "real change," let's see what actually happens vs. making proclamations, people nodding their heads and fist-banging for the cameras. That's not change, it's theatre, and it's meant to fool people like Reflective into thinking something's happening.

By the way, what's going on with that Baghdasarian assassination plot? Is he one of those "change agents"?

Onnik Krikorian said...

No idea what happened to the Baghdasarian assassination plot, but for sure it was one of the most disgraceful speeches of the whole election period. For sure, if he made it up (which I assumed then he did, and still consider that to be the case), he should face prosecution or at least some kind of public humiliation.

proudly anonymous said...

Reflective, I question your "dwindling numbers" assertion, but even if such a trend exists, do you think it has anything to do with the 10 dead, over 200 injured, and the 113 jailed as a result of "post-election developments"?

While we search for every opportunity to regurgitate the same tired and unfounded bullsh*t about racism and divisiveness, let's not lose perspective here.

I am amazed at your continual inability to see what's in front of you. For example, the parliament today voted 88-3 (that's 99%!!!!) to approve the new government plan. If you think this is going to serve to cool tensions and lead to "dwindling numbers" of people protesting, you are mistaken.

For as long as Zhirayr Sefilyan is in jail and Vahan Hovhannisyan is not only free, but a presidential candidate (just one of the many 1000s injustices and imbalances seen in today's Armenia), all this talk of reform is just that: talk, and the 30 kids demanding change will again turn in to 300,000 at the drop of a hat.

reflective said...

That is a compelling argument, proudly anonymous. Vahan Hovhannisian should be in jail as a political prisoner, but everyone now in jail should be free? Let's pick and choose our political prisoners as suits our tastes.

This is why the radical opposition movement gains little support among Armenian society. It is just sour grapes covered by a fake shell of being pro-democracy.

And yes, the 10 deaths have a lot to do with the lack of support: many do not want to follow hysterical hate-mongers who incite riots.

BTW, I think you meant "Soros $$ infusion," not "drop of a hat."

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Soros $$ infusion?

You mean that's why Levon Ter-Petrossian was sleeping out of his car between the elections and March 1st.

I asked you once if you were a dashnak. You said you weren't. Then a week later you admitted that you were.

Now, things are different. It seems you believe in the age-old Zionist conspiracy theory that is the KGB's last stance: We are the last bastion that will protect you from the Jews that will have you as slaves.

Really? I think most Armenians would like to deal with that supposed Jewish onslaught as Armenians.

If it's true, then the Jews hate Russians far more than they do Armenians. Why should we shoulder the problems of Russia?

I don't care about Russia's problems. Unless Russia has something to offer, like maybe, getting its psycho pencil-pushers out of the country.

Otherwise, its bye-bye to you Russia. You had a good run, but now you will be crushed.

Anonymous said...

1. The idea that Levon has said that Dod is "a good person" is a common thing among relatively descent, but pro-Serzh people, who, being relatively descent, are shy to state clearly that they support the current government.

Yes, LEvon said before the elections, that he hoped that G.Tsarukyan and others will choose the side of the people rather than the side of the dictatorship.
However, during the 1st meeting after the elections he clearly said that "Serzhik's victory was not a victory of the people, but a victory of Dodi Gagos, Nemets Rubos, Lfik Samos, etc".

2.Another common pro-serzh propaganda trick is accusing anyone who's doing anything, which is not in line with government's actions, of "splitting the society".

So, for ex., kids who stage a peaceful, civilized and creative protest action are splitting the society while RK's bodyguards who killed a person in the toilet of Poplavok simply for calling RK "Robert"several years ago , were not splitting the society.

The society has been split long ago by the actions of RK, SS, Dod and others like them. What these kids are doing, is trying to put the society together again.

Anonymous said...

Now this is really pissing me off.
Whenever, someone is protesting about anything in post-Soviet space, the government supporters are remembering Soros.

REflective,(or anyone else)
can you please bring one fact (a fact, not a speculation)that proves that Soros foundation is supporting Levon Ter-Petrosyan?

The funny thing is that Soros foundation's activities are public, you can go to their web-site (www.osi.am) and find all their grants - with names of people and organizations and sums of money.

If you go there you won't find neither LEvon Ter-PEtrosyan, nor Nikol Pashinyan, nor Stepan Dermichyan, etc. Instead, you might find figures that are today in one way or the other aligned with government.

reflective said...

Armen - I am not a Dashnak and never have been. Where did I admit I was one?

Jewish, Zionist conspiracy? Russian interests? What are you talking about? There is no such diatribe in any of my posts. You put words in my mouth and then carry on a conversation against yourself where you convince yourself of something. I think you are delusional.

reflective said...

Pissed off anonyomous, not to waste much time stating the obvious, but here is something from Onnik Krikorian's blog in reference to your question:

http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/03/2
2/silent-protest-in-yerevan/

"Incidentally, just before last year’s parliamentary election, OSI also funded a visit by the head of the Albanian Mjaft! to Armenia at the request of a local OSI-grantee, the Center for Regional Development / Transparency International Armenia, to work with its Armenian counterpart, Sksela.

Interestingly, I ran into the Mjaft! head at a local rock club one evening. With him were the head of the National Democratic Institute (NDI) in Yerevan, Sksela activists and the political officer from the British Embassy, Naira Sultanyan.

The latter has recently funded Ter-Petrossian activists for democracy-related activities and is alleged to have been present among opposition supporters near the French Embassy on 1 March. All a little too conspiratorial perhaps, but food for thought."


Plus I think it is funny you are asking for factual proof. People on blogs such as this are comfortable accusing or agreeing with accusations of MURDER (for example, by the previous authorities on Oct 27, 99) among other fanciful accusations without any proof? Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at this warped and arbitrary sense of justice.

Anonymous said...

///Yes, Levon said before the elections, that he hoped that G.Tsarukyan and others will choose the side of the people rather than the side of the dictatorship.
However, during the 1st meeting after the elections he clearly said that "Serzhik's victory was not a victory of the people, but a victory of Dodi Gagos, Nemets Rubos, Lfik Samos, etc".///

1. And that is the logic which I am trying to break through. If a criminal is on the side of LTP, then he is good citizen of Armenia. Otherwise, he is evil. Its not about principles and values, its about who is in who's camp. If Aghvan Hovsepyan, Tigran Sargissyan, Tigran Torosyan and even muk chose to support LTP, then are you going to applaud him? like you applauded to the criminal Djhangiryan?

2. people. the word people is so vague in the mouths of LTP. And who else was talking from the name of people - if I am not mistaken all revolutionarists who later were "killing" other parts of society to proof that people were in their side. And others are not people - they are gharabaghtsis.


And the masterpiece quote:
RK - Im kusaktsutyuny im zhoghovurdn e

mayranoush said...

Anonymous 13:22
Regarding your statement ‘hard to say, number of participants were from diaspora’ Are you implying that diasporans are not ‘Real Armenians’ and hence their participation is not important? Please clarify, otherwise you seem to imply that if diasporans were participating then it is not important.

You write, ‘other garbage’, would you please clarify if these people, such as General Manvel, became garbage AFTER they left the regime or were they also garbage before. And moreover, are you saying that there is no ‘garbage’ as you put it among the regime? If that is what you are saying, please give the names of the ‘non-garbage’ so that we can admire them from afar (As that famous ARmenian song goes 'Arekagin petq e hervits nayel, kayri yete shat motenas…')

You asked me to clarify regime supporters, well that is simple, it includes the parties such as Parkavatch Hayastan, the ARF, Orinats Yerkir, etc. Those are the parties which support the regime. I thought that would have been fairly obvious, but there you have it.

You and Reflective like to talk about unity, can you please tell us if closing our eyes to injustice is good even if it supports your so-called unity? Should we be united even if it is in support of something bad? Is that what you are claiming?
And please don’t be so quick to label the youth, there are many young people in Armenia who are doing things spontaneously (inkapukh) and not because of foreign funding. You may not want to believe that, but that only demonstrates you level of cynicism.

And finally, Reflective, if it wasn't Rob and Serzh who were behind the 27 October killings would you please tell us who was behind it and thereby enlighten us with your wisdom. If you say it was solely planned and orchestrated by Nairi Hunanian, then I am afraid you are succumbing to a form of voluntary blindness which is most unbecoming of someone who calls themselves 'Reflective'

reflective said...

Read your last paragraph again Mayranoush. All I said was that people are accused of murder and everyone continues along as if it is an assumed truth, without any proof whatsoever. I have no idea who killed anyone. My detective work is required to disprove your baseless accusations? Interesting logic.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mayranush

///Regarding your statement ‘hard to say, number of participants were from diaspora’ Are you implying that diasporans are not ‘Real Armenians’ and hence their participation is not important? ///

Did I say such thing? The discussion was on the cultural change in Armenia in regard to youth. The Armenians from other countries were socialized there and acting in Armenia. Hence, attributing their action to the local youth is doubtful. Moreover, its interesting that sksela/hima doesn't have local youth as resources. Aren't they with movement or afraid to show up? I don't know.

///Please clarify, otherwise you seem to imply that if diasporans were participating then it is not important.///

It is important but I will not attribute to it as "pan Armenian movement"


///You write, ‘other garbage’, would you please clarify if these people, such as General Manvel, became garbage AFTER they left the regime or were they also garbage before.///

I always called them garbage and will. I am surprised that the line of garbage is based on the locus of camp and not moral and other principal values. Here is the list of garbage - LTP, SS, Ara Sayakyan, RQ, Tigran Sargissyan, Manvel G., Aghvan Hovsepyan, Jhangiryan, Dodi Gago, Grzo, Nikol Pashinyan, Alik Harutyunyan, Poghpatyan, Andranik Manukyan, etc. They act similarly supported each other in different times.

///And moreover, are you saying that there is no ‘garbage’ as you put it among the regime? If that is what you are saying, please give the names of the ‘non-garbage’ so that we can admire them from afar///

Did I say such thing? Please clarify what is 'regime' for you and I will answer to the question. Hope to receive correct explanation and not the stamp/labeled-messages of LTP.


///You asked me to clarify regime supporters, well that is simple, it includes the parties such as Parkavatch Hayastan, the ARF, Orinats Yerkir, etc. Those are the parties which support the regime. I thought that would have been fairly obvious, but there you have it.///

This is coalition government and political parties. Please be specific and don't generalize. Who is Vazgen Manukyan in your list? And who were Jhangiryan and General Manvel in your list before 2007?



///You and Reflective like to talk about unity, can you please tell us if closing our eyes to injustice is good even if it supports your so-called unity? Should we be united even if it is in support of something bad? Is that what you are claiming?////

It is trade-off. For me #1 value is Armenia+NKR. And I am pro it. I call for unity based on pro Armenians and not "against something bad" If the means of against "something bad" are revolutionary processes then I am with Armenia+something bad. And I still don't understand supprting a revolution to for the purpose of replacing Armenia+something bad with Armenia+something bad 2. And during this process [unintentionally] dividing the nation into Karabaghtsis and non-Karabaghtsis. And I am not talking about harm which this revolution may bring about.

And the sad part is that RK/SS and LTP support each other with their smart [LTP] and stupid [RK/SS] actions. One creates a space for revolution via stupidly harming and angrying people, and another uses this space of revolution to come to power.

///And please don’t be so quick to label the youth, there are many young people in Armenia who are doing things spontaneously (inkapukh) and not because of foreign funding.///

Did I use labels? You are targeting wrong discussants. Armen filadelfiatsis messages are full of labels not mine.

Ani said...

//Moreover, its interesting that sksela/hima doesn't have local youth as resources. Aren't they with movement or afraid to show up? I don't know.//

Quit blowing smoke. This is simply a lie--local Armenian youth ARE in the movement, and in fact are organizing Hima as they mostly did Sksela. No, I will not tell you any names. And furthermore, since many youth are required to go back and forth between Armenia and another country who will give them decent jobs or education, who exactly is "local" anyway?

reflective said...

Not a member of wither ARF or skesla (or avartela) but it causes pause for thought that the very group euphoric for the banning of the ARF as an "outside group" is now acknowledging the outside interference of these externally funded overnight revolutionaries.

What comes around goes around.

mayranoush said...

Reflective you write:

[[[People on blogs such as this are comfortable accusing or agreeing with accusations of MURDER (for example, by the previous authorities on Oct 27, 99) among other fanciful accusations without any proof? Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at this warped and arbitrary sense of justice.]]]

Interesting that you are so comfortable making sweeping generalizations about LTP and his 'crimes' yet when it comes to Oct 27 and other SS/RR actions you demand higher levels of proof. I say this having read your numerous posts here and elsewhere.

As for anonymous, perhaps I misread you, but I still don't see what you mean by the diaspora comment. Again, what difference does it make if the youth are from Armenia or from the diaspora?? Moreover, many of the youth in Hima and Sksela ARE from Armenia. Just because they also received some of their education abroad does not make them diaspora Armenians. Perhaps you have a different understanding of what makes a diasporan but I don't think that is something for this forum. It is an Armenian youth movement because it is comprised of Armenian youths (regardless of where they were educated).

You write ==Did I say such thing? Please clarify what is 'regime' for you andI will answer to the question.==

What I mean by regime is the party in power and its supporting political parties (coalition if you will). Again that includes those individuals who hold posts in the SS administration and those who are in the pro-government coalition parties. It does not include the opposition.

I hope that is clear. Now I hope you will identify or give us some indication of who you consider 'non-garbage'. Because from what you write, it seems to me that both the old politicians (e.g., Poghpatyan, Kor Ando Manukyan, etc.) are garbage and the young student activists are somehow tainted. So, who do you consider to be 'good' or 'non-garbage' (or whatever other positive term you want to use).

proudly anonymous said...

Reflective, so now you are admitting we have political prisoners? I believe this is what is referred to as "breakthrough" in psychology.

Vahan Hovhannisyan was not a political prisoner by any stretch of the imagination; he never spent a second in prison for his political views. While Zhirayr Sefilyan was risking his life in Artsax, "old friend" Vahan and his "party" were busy being well-known criminals. Vahan Hovhannisyan is a convicted murderer, and no court, not even Kocharyan's staged sideshows, has ever acquitted him of the said crime.

For someone like you, Smbat Ayvazyan, Zhirayr Sefilyan, Sasun Mikaelyan are just names, but for the rest of us they are symbols of triumph, the few who came back, the few who survived...To see them in jail absolutely breaks my heart, and it should yours too.

Fact is, everyone outside the regime's famed clientèle who has dared to express an opposing view to the authorities is now either in jail or in hiding with the exception of the precious few. And even for those, it's only a matter of time.

If you'll remember, we didn't suffer from a lack of opposing viewpoints in LTP's time; and in fact when he was told it was time to go, he did, even though he could have just as successfully clung to power, organized a similar crackdown, thrown everyone in jail for trying to usurp power, or better yet, have them killed.

He didn't, because he knew that people would forgive him for the dark and cold years (22% by official numbers did) but never for that. And that's one of the main differences between this regime and the last: the former had limits and boundaries, whereas we're still looking for the current one's. 10 dead still doesn't seem to be the threshold...

reflective said...

You are right - we had opposing viewpoints in LTP's time.

While he and his brother Telman were stuffing cash into their pockets selling electricity to Turks while Armenians in maternity wards froze to death, most Armenians were sacrificing for a war and for survival.

Thank God that LTP, Vano and the founding criminal fathers will never be near levers of state power again.

reflective said...

Proudly anonymous, just for the record, your following statement is false:

"Vahan Hovhannisyan is a convicted murderer, and no court, not even Kocharyan's staged sideshows, has ever acquitted him of the said crime."

Pls check:
http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/02/13/da
shnaktsutyun-warns-against-tension-cl
ashes/


or from Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/worldrepo
rt/Helsinki-02.htm

"The government continued prosecuting thirty-one defendants in a second Dashnak-related set of trials. The defendants stand accused of involvement in a July 1995 coup attempt that the government alleges was intended to disrupt by-elections. The trial of the lead defendant, Dashnak party chief Vahan Hovannisyan, charged with organizing activities aimed at the overthrow of the government and terrorism, dragged on through 1997. Throughout the proceedings Hovannisyan alleged, with good reason, that deliberate delays and postponements in the trial were intended to hinder the defense, that witnesses had been pressured into providing false evidence they later recanted, and that on several occasions he was refused access to his attorney. Earlier in the year Hovannisyan and other defendants on trial complained of pressure and beatings of some of their family members by Interior Ministry personnel."

even check out RFE/RL's reporting at the time:

RFE/RL NEWSLINE Vol 1, No. 179, Part I, 15 December 1997

ARMENIAN COURT SENTENCES OPPOSITION ACTIVISTS.
The Supreme Court on 12 December concluded handing down
prison sentences in the trial of 31 members and supporters of
the opposition Dashnak party (HHD), which was suspended by
President Levon Ter-Petrossyan in December 1994. The
defendants were arrested in July 1995 and brought to trial in
March 1996 on charges of publicly calling for the overthrow of
the Armenian government. Initial charges of plotting a coup,
terrorism, and high treason were dropped because of lack of
evidence. The key defendant, Vahan Hovanissian, received a
four-year prison sentence. The court found four other
defendants guilty of the murder of two policemen during their
arrest and handed down a death sentence to one of them (see
"End Note" below). LF


Sounds like a political prisoner to me and everyone else covering the event at the time.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Do you have a photo of Dzerzhinski hanging in your office, reflective?

Anonymous said...

Ok, the case against Vahan Hovhannisyan and others was known as the "Dro" case and a few members, such as Mnjoyan and Artsrouni are still in jail as we speak. Vahan Hovhannisyan was never acquitted of his crimes in the court, he was given amnesty by Kocharyan which shows that they did not have evidence that he did not commit the crime. I used to live in Armenia during those yrs and i remember those court cases, they had so much evidence against the "dro" members that no court or lawyer could save them then or now. Mnjoyan and Artsrouni are in jail for life, Hrayr Markaryan is exiled, but Hovhannisyan was allowed to walk free which is a shame!!

reflective said...

I love the hypocrisy: people on this blog can call others murderers or even float the claim that they are convicted murderers, while readers nod and smile with tacit complicity. Then we can wail in hysterics when there are people jailed today who supported a coup against the state.

My oligarchs are better than you oligarchs! My thieves are better than yours!!

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

You can tell the coup plotting criminals from the political prisoners just by the numbers alone.

Coups are carried out by a small number of people, about 30 in the case of the ARF.

On the other hand, the number of political prisoners involved in genuine movements is large because most of those prisoners are representatives of the movement in towns and villagers across the country, and in this case, there are approximately 150 of them.

Also, Nairi Hunanian, Karen Hunanian, Edik Grigorian, and Vram Galstyan all were ARF members. When the court put the coup planning murderers in jail, it only delayed the execution of the plan for a few years, until the Hunanian group carried it out.

One wonders whether the ARF supports the present criminal government because it wants to avoid inquiries into Oct. 27th.

Right about now, your credibility is on par with a certain proverbial boy who sighted wolves, reflective.

Anonymous said...

Ok, I stand corrected on Vahan. I was told by a number of people the claim I'd made earlier...I read up on it, and I am willing to admit my mistakes unlike certain others. Still, he has never been acquitted of anything, yet is free to be a presidential candidate. He was freed because, and I quote, a "change of circumstances." I have an intense dislike of Dashnaks, for a good reason, and therefore that perhaps clouds my judgment from time to time. Btw, I'm glad that you conveniently ignored everything else I wrote though.

You keep talking about hypocrisy, and insist on people providing proof on statements that are on par with "the sky is blue" in their obviousness, and yet you said the following: "While he and his brother Telman were stuffing cash into their pockets selling electricity to Turks while Armenians in maternity wards froze to death, most Armenians were sacrificing for a war and for survival.

Logic dictates that 1)we had no electricity to sell to Turkey, and 2)Joxovurd@ kaser, Turkian mer huysin er mnacel?! I don't even have words for your outlandish claim; I'll just offer a fun little fact: over 40% of Armenia's electricity comes from that God-forsaken nuclear plant.

It's funny how two of Azerbaijan's Armenian-hating communist party's cadres can get away with propaganda that suggests that Levon is a Turk/Azeri, a Turkish/Azeri agent, a Turko/Azeriphile and/or was/is ready to give Gharabagh away. It's funnier that people believe them and repeat their bull.

reflective said...

Armen - Unlike you,I am not a Bolshevik self-styled judge, jury, and executioner. All I said is that there is no evidence, and I think it transforms an otherwise informative blog like this into a low-class hate-fest if people claim that others are murderers or claim that they are convicted of murder incorrectly.

You claim that a coup consists of 30 but not 150 people? I didn't realize that there were number limits on such activity. "Uh, sorry, we already have our 30th, you and the other 119, please come back and sign up next week." I honestly thought you were making some kind of a joke but then realized you are serious.

I understand you hate the ARF and think they should be ethnically cleansed from Armenia. Fine, that is your opinion. I am not even an ARF member but am demonstrating the inanity of these arguments, for the sake of the readership. Go ahead and kill the messenger, but just reading the 30 or so comments on this thread reveals the absence of logic and integrity in your arguments.

Anonymous said...

Reflexes,
How can you call whatever has happened here a coup and label October 27 otherwise. It's really illogical.

reflective said...

I haven't labeled Oct 27 as anything. All I said is that I do not know who killed people that day, and I find it pitiful that everyone here is comfortable with unsubstantiated claims that Rob or Bob or Todd killed anyone.